-1
what I dont like about it is simply that they scale up automaticaly when you rank
you dont know what your upkeep will be in +10 or + 50 ranks or if you will be able to pay it


I have no problem with beeing able to scale up recearched modules
but would prefere that for every 500 ranks you get, you can instead build/upgrade to a new Marc II, III, IV, V etc version of all existing modules
but it should be the players choice where or not he actualy wants to upgrade the modules

or it could even some new recearch that unlock at Rank, 1000+ thet alow you to recearch upgrades on recearch modules
that increase output and upkeep when you compleet the recearch

Yes you do. I posted a link to a spreadsheet that shows how it would work. Not hard to calculate at all.

sure I can calcylate it if I want to, but that's not the point
I installed 8 Heavy Thetacron Cannon, becourse they cost me 222.9 mil cr / day (with my Dark AssemblyBot)

= no matter is how many ranks I gain, I dont have to worry about increasing my income to pay my upkeep
if I want to upgrade them, I can use Havoc Coils to do so, but if I do that I know I'll get presisly +20% output for + 20% extra upkeep, so you can chose to do this or not depending on income, or on where or not you plane on getting heavy Quasi-Chaotic Blasters

as I see it, your sugestion isn't realy improving the module when it comes to Heavy Thetacron Cannon/Heavy Quasi-Chaotic Blasters
due to the fact that they have high upkeep compaired to output, and some mid rank players already have a hard time paying that upkeep

I could easily upgrade to Heavy Quasi-Chaotic Blasters if I wanted to, but see no point in paying around 6 bil (12 bil with a full set of Havoc Coils) extra upkeep for 8 * (430 - 356) = 592 attack (1184 attack if you factor in Havoc Coils)
that's basickly only 100 extra prissoners spendt on Tactical Officers that cost 0 upkeep


as I sayed, I have no problem at all with scaling them to rank - but let the player chose when/and if he wants to upgrade them, instead of having them auto scale every time you rank up

I do +1 this too.

Many LSB ships I've come across have very well equiped modules on them, but lag in having a good crew. LSB ships should have a good crew in conjunction with their big weapons. However, I'd probably limit the amount of decks they should have in the end to (Rank 9999+19)or 10018 decks because more than that would make them more vulnerable to hits. LSB ships with large amounts of crew more than that of an SSB/MSB with high ratio mods can overwhelm an SSB/MSB if they do not have enough crew themselves. However, an SSB/MSB can overwhelm an LSB with little crew, even with high ratio mods on. If an LSB focuses mainly on mods the whole time, he will later be overwhelmed as people with larger crews take advantage of their max damage.

For SSB/MSB ships, some of them have what they need containing several amounts of tactical officers, but eventually as ranks get higher, they will have the option of putting some decks and will have to put on some mods. Limiting decks is very good and that is why SSB/MSB ships do it because adding too much decks leaves them more vulnerable when they do not have any high ratio mods or growing high ratio mods with % equips on hand. For an SSB/MSB, 10018 decks is the best amount of decks to have for endgame because some mods that give attack/hull/shield/defense/energy are not high ratio in decks to stat bonus. SSB/MSB ships can take down LSB ships that have high amounts of decks and little defense with ease, no matter what they got on there. However, if an SSB/MSB will deal less damage to an LSB that is well equiped with large crews and high ratio mods.

To make modules more relevant, why not have every module get a a small % stat bonus for using an ability for a ship or a module that upgrades all the mods of one section that are installed when used in sections such as: Weapons and Defense. The ability has the choice of upgrading any section of your ships mods and can be used every 24 hours. This keeps everyone at a different pace, allows people to upgrade their modules for a long time with no limits on upgrades and does not break the game as the % stat bonus is very low.

Meh all these suggestions are overly complicated and dont really solve the issue, changing the damage cap forumla to rank +19 or decks/2 would be quick and easy way to improve the situation. this would still allow ssb's to exist but it will stop players in a year or two's time being rank 3k+ with 300k+ hull and having a 800 damage cap or what ever stupidly small amount.

-1 once again. this automaticaly turns most msb who have had a destinct advatage in scanning and hitting harder than ssbs into ssb. It makes all those who have played as ssb worse off. Improve lsb, dont make ssb worse

Everything you say is with complete bias because you are an SSB And for the record of this thread i am an MSB and my suggestion would actually negatively effect my build in terms of damage cap but it doesn't mean I don't think it is the right thing, Anyway this is my counter argument.


This would mean at rank 1k you would have a 1k damage cap which is still an SSB by all accounts and would remain a viable a clever strategy to follow without becoming completely overpowered as it is now

Now onto the line you spouted to every single post here "Improve LSB" what exactly do you suggest? give LSB 300k attack boost it makes no difference, there is no way to Balance an LSB in regards to an SSB without nerfing the SSB in some way.

Nothing done with modules can change the fact that a damage cap is a hard cap.

I personally feel the SSB was a complete oversight by Dan much the way autoranking was and while he cant take away the SSB or autoranking he's been doing his best to make autoranking harder and i'd hope he start making in roads on this as well.


The way the damage cap is worked out makes no sense the top calc is me with all my current defence modules in place The second calc is just my helmsmen with % based defence and no researched or other defence mods with the decks they used taken off the calculation.


Your opponent dies in: 258(185 to 450) hits.

Your opponent dies in: 258(194 to 436) hits.


The way the damage cap works as is it's not even worth adding defence to make your ship harder to kill and people want to tell me that everything is working how it should be.

Removing the limit may help LSB without hurting SSB. so you want 100x hulls go right ahead as long as you can aford the upkeep its all good.

the same nimrods pop up every time to turn topics like this into a deck.pissing contest.

i got so pissed (haha), i decided to do a page on the wiki outlining the evolution of the damage cap just to shut all those bozos up. Dan aint likely gonna change it again no matter how much you whine.

http://galaxylegion.com/wiki/index.php/ ... _Evolution

instead, to get back ON.TOPIC, here are some previous suggestions about how the researched mods could be made more worthwhile:

Golgotha 18sep2012: Ship clss and size. viewtopic.php?f=6&t=28949&hilit=ssb&start=43 - making repair artis less effective if used within a short period of time ... mods or artis that are boosted in power based on cloak or scan

Golgotha 31aug2013: Rebalancing final research trees - make them worth using! viewtopic.php?f=6&t=37723&p=386250#p386250 - stacking and set bonuses for final tier ship mods

Golgotha 31aug2013: Rebalancing SSB, MSB, and LSB.. from a MSB perspective viewtopic.php?f=6&t=37722&start=0&hilit=damage+cap+Golgotha&p=386257&view=show#p386257 using cloak and scan in adjusting the combat formula, or in protecting against offensive artis

Toaster 03dec2013: Put the strategy back into the game
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=38919&hilit=damage+cap&start=51 "the BASE modules for your ship should give the percentage bonuses, and the special ones should give regular stats. Then, cap the ship's ability to hold % modules, but don't limit what type."

combining these, we could have a new 'final' research tier ... incorporating % mods as Toaster suggested, with additional combat bonuses for cloak and scan mods as Golgotha suggested. heck, make the %bonus based on the number of mods installed in each area. so the higher the number of shield mods, the higher the %bonus of the final tier. SSB's can still use the final mods, but can't use them all at the same time. the benefit that this would also help those working towards the Genius medal to avoid going out of legion also comes to mind.

i play this game because it offers players MORE choices and would be very disappointed by suggestions that DECREASE choices as crew limits and nerfing the damage cap formula (for the THIRD time) would entail. do i have a vested interest in the SSB build ? you betcha. but i also want to see the game grow in a healthy fashion and as i've said multiple times before having every ship built the same way for each rank is a recipe for game death (Mafia W&rs, B&ttlestations et al.)

Actualy up untill ssb decks = number of decks required to fit all attack boosting moduels LSB does have an advantage. While this may only be 500 or so attack that is 500 or so more attack on bases, invasions, npcs, pvp everything. And for at least 1000 ranks ssb has lower scan too, so they cant break as good planets cloak or scan as many limiting their arti production and ship growth compared to if they were lsb. One LSB I have talked to, he whom shalt not be named on this forum, couldn't give a rats ass about their damage cap, they are willing to be squishier to have that advantage.

And am I bias, of course I am bias, you are bias too as you are a msb not a ssb. I am bias in the same way you would be if suddenly ranks 1000+ had their arti production halved to slow growth or their rescued prisoners rates dropped. My entire game strategy has revolved around a low deck build since rank 100.

I wouldn't like to see special mods lose their special % boosts and abilities but adding % boosts to final tier or past final tier mods would be a acceptable trade off in my opinion. The growth of researched ship mods statts based on either decks or rank would also be fine.

Ofc that option suits you, it does nothing to solve the problem. I see you failed to respond to the latter half of my post everything aside do you actually believe that defence modules should be so useless that just not installing them would make your ship just as strong?

And it's the same "nimrod" SSB's of the forums that try to discredit any form of compromise, because they dont care what is good for the game rather what is good for them.

I think its just the same guys tend to activly check the forums, and after a few years get very set in opinions. Almost all of the threads that were posted above had both you and I debating the topic after all!

I think its clear that i have always supported changing the system for the betterment of the game, though of course my idea of what would make it better can be drastically different to someone elses.

I do not feel a gun with a fixed percentage chance to do a fixed percentage damage is a good idea - that was wolfyminion i believe. Doing so would make all ships with that gun exactly equal in strength, over time. Not good mojo. I did suggest that critical hits bypass damage cap to do a fixed percent of total ship health - the vital difference is that a ships choice on scan and cloak would offer a defence and attack from that method of damage.

As to the changes described in OP's post, I actually like them as a suggestion. No, it doesnt solve all the problems inherent in the ship size debate but what it does is offer a small but meaningful advantage to having the ability to keep things installed - one that may not make a huge difference for the well established 100k + arti group, but would be a huge difference for the 20k+ arti group, whom are probably the majority of players level 500-1500 not in a top ten legion. Having a "set" bonus for having all of a paticular kind of item installed also helps justify their existence. It may "only" be 10k more shields and hull, but If you only have 50k hull, thats a big difference.

If you feel the changes are not meaningful enough to offer an advantage to large ships, why not just suggest a better ratio, or better percentage, or any kind of alternate idea related to the topic? OP isnt discussing damage caps after all, he is discussing ways to help make large ships seem more appealing in the role they fill - giant hulking behemoths of the sky that have much better base statistics than the small combat only ships, but are more vulnerable when all systems are EMP'd out of existence.

Thank you.

Yeah, to be clear: I do not have a problem with the damage cap and am not looking to see it changed. Again: I do not have a problem with the damage cap and am not looking to see it changed. IMO SSBs and MSBs deserve the benefits they reap for all the work/planning they put into their ship. My problem is:

1) Current game mechanics screw LSBs over at high AP, which limits playstyle options for players who want different kinds of ships (well, the option is there, it's just not great compared to others).

2) Non-scan/cloak/buff/ability modules players earn from research or missions become little more than filler over time. IMO if you can use a dozen TIBs on somebody and it acts as the equivalent of maybe 3-4 EMPs/Disarming Bombs, something is out of balance.

I'm not saying my suggestion of scaled mods and research % mods is without flaw. IMO, LSBs should shine brightest against planets and bases, but both have finite defense, so at some point down the road, there's really not going to be much practical difference between a tough SSB/MSB and LSB, even if that LSB has like 10%, 20%, or more attack. But scaling mods would at least be a permanent, tangible benefit.

if you compair, old recearch modules with some of the new
it very clear why recearch modules are becomming more and more outdated

Perfect Syncopated Plating (size 43, Hull +1105 - upkeep 137.2 mil / day)
vs
Raix-Radiated Plating (size 20, Hull +960 (500% Upgrade) upkeep 79.7 mil / day)
Stacked Attiroth Plating (size 25. Hull +2000 (300% Upgrade), hull bonus +5% - upkeep 153.4 mil pr day)


Xathe Containment Hold (size 25, Hull +600, Shield +600, Energy +180, (200% Upgrade) - upkeep 102.9 mil / day )
vs
Heavy Obviator Shield (size 52, Shield +559 - upkeep 55.7 mil / day)


Alarri Probability Core (size 20, Defense +270, Cloak +360 - upkeep 12.9 mil / day)
vs
Inverse Flux Jammer - Mark III (size 56, Cloak +761 - upkeep 99.2 mil / day)
+
Trans-Entropy Drive - Mark III (size 102 Defense +820, upkeep 428.7 mil / day)


etc etc etc
it outlines the need for upgrades on existant modules all to well

most of the new super modules Dan is giving us have better size to output ratio
24/1 vs 10.75/1 if you just look at shield on Xathe Containment Hold vs Heavy Obviator Shield

so I'm all for improving recearched modules, but I dont think simply scaling them to rank is the answer

what I would like to see instead, is high rank recearch
weapons that increase the output of recearch weapons, without increasing theire upkeep
energy recearch, that increase the energy of reactors, and decrease the energy penalty for relays
defence recearch that decrease size of defence modules, and increase theire output
Cloak recearch, that when you are attacking gives a chance the defender will miss your ship doing 0 dammage, if you have more cloak then he have scan

+1

It is true that a lot of the newer modules give much better bang for the deck and the buck, but they're not the reason researched and other older modules become meaningless. When you can replace the attack from a Heavy Thetacron/Quasi in less than a week with Tactical Officers as many players can, offering an increased static bonus for a weapon does little more than provide it with a longer shelf-life before it becomes an expensive afterthought. For an example of how this works, 300-400 ranks ago, I could boost my planetary invasion chance from 50% to 80% by adding Heavy Null Rays to my ship. Now, adding 8 Heavy Quasis will boost my invasion chance on a 50% planet by only a few points. Diminishing returns fo sure.

With defensive modules, it is even worse. If you are not already awash in helmsmen, the high-end defensive modules will help you for a time, but long term, the deck space they use up makes them more of a liability than an asset regardless of how much of a defensive bonus they add per deck used. For example: I have two upgraded Trans-Entropy III's in my cargo right now. If I were to add 204 decks and install them today, they would provide me with a defensive upgrade against all but ships with about 110k+ attack (who would kill me with ease regardless). But I've done the math, and know I'd be kicking myself 4-6 months down the road for the increase in cap if I did that; in other words, after I reach a certain threshold in helmsmen, I'll actually do better with 3455 less defense and 204 fewer decks than I would with it. And the numbers don't really matter. Dan could release a size 180 module that adds 6k defense tomorrow and the only difference would be the time it takes from being a net-positive to a net negative.

If the modules scaled with my ship rank, however, this would not be the case. Sure, helmsmen would still be more important, but at least the defensive module would remain a net positive for its lifetime.

the values on your spreadsheet for upkeeps look way outta whack... for example at rank 2000 it suggests 17Bil and 26Bil upkeeps... the latter is definitely wrong, because the upgraded HQ's+ upgraded defense mods are way above 26Bil, let alone all the other ship module costs.

Also, whilst the idea is nice, here are some flaws behind the design of the idea;

Let's say that this might well benefit those of the ~100k arti club or those closer to 50k aph who run an LSB. I can tell you now, that none of them can afford to run these scaled upgrades... have you see the number of builders in this game lol. I've encountered hundreds of players with those sort of aph's, and most have 25k mph or lower, and just as bad research levels. What will happen is they will all have to switch to builder or downgrade their modules severely.

Then there's the issue, and i hate to bring it up, but it has to be done, how will this effect high ranked players?

As a rank 3k+ player, what would my new upkeep be? I'm currently at 35 Bil a day. I'd assume with full upgrades(HQ's, EI's & TeD's) i'd be at 50Bil a day. Then there's the scaling upkeep with rank... would that push my upkeep to 70Bil a day? ... more? Why would anyone pay that, when anyone that could afford to, can make the stat gains in a day that each rank up would offer.

All i do know is that it comes across as another punishment for ranking up, especially if you chose LSB. Which lets face it, for the most part all high ranks are LSB's.


-----------

Honestly, people need to stop looking for a way to offer some sort of rebalance to the game, because it ain't gonna happen. Dan showed long ago what he wants everyone to do, when he started introducing these % upgrade mods as part of daily/legion missions. He wants everyone to plays as SSB/MSB, and just tosses all LSB's to the wind, because as every other piece of this game shows, he doesn't care about the long term players.

Researched ship modules become more and more outdated to the point that they are not even considered high ratio for the decks they use on ships. With ways to get attack/defense/hull/energy/shields by having artifact production, these researched modules lose their % bonus overtime (that does not grow with the ship itself) as a whole because more of these are added. Sooner or later all the researched modules put on the ship that do not give an overall % integrity will become a crutch and continue to become increasingly worthless to keep up with because it gives almost nothing compared to what the abundance of artifact production gives everyday. Even though the researched mods start off with a high % in the beginning compared to these artifacts boosts, their bonuses will eventually be reduced to almost 0% of a strong ship overtime.

Researched modules cannot be left on people's ships to rot out of existence as more of these artifacts continue to overshadow them. They should have a reason to be kept on a person ship, instead of just being unused dead weight in the end game.

Besides that, it is worth it to give these researched mods a chance to grow with upgrades that does not increase upkeep by much alongside these artifacts and continue to have value for a long time. Researched mods that grow with these artifacts can keep its value and possibly even increase its value in the long run.

However, there is a way to remedy to this and that is to allow researched module to be upgraded with not much increase in upkeep, preferably from extremely rare elites/bosses/npcs, to get a meaningful upgrade with a dropped artifact that upgrades only one of any tier selected research module by a % and does not increase overall stats.

In addition to that, these % upgrades for researched modules needs to be obtainable through missions. Many legion missions out there are well worth the effort to finish to get this upgrade. This gives an incentive for anybody who does these missions to get the unlimited upgrades from doing these missions to allow people to be at a different pace than everyone else.

Lastly, I suggest allowing these researched modules to have the chance to be boosted with artifacts for more variety. Researched mods should be able to get upgrades, with any method, that give them different bonuses like, for example, having an artifact that increases the defense of any module by +2 for an unlimited time. This makes everyone's ship able to continue to grow and allows people to be different from one another overtime and allows people to be powerful no matter what build they are.

All of these suggestions may apply to non-researched modules as well if possible.