Without Dark Bots, 8 Fully upgraded Heavy Quasis are 16.4B CR, 4 Fully Upgraded Entropy IIIs are 4B Cr, 4 Fully Upgraded Exergonic IIIs are 1B CR.

Together they cost 21.4B CR. They do not cost way above 26B CR.

Go Math.

this is my interpretation although I could be wrong- you've included the upgraded quasis in your table and the total(with upgrades) is less than quasi upgrades + entropy upgrades.

You are correct. In the equation, I mis-typed and was counting cell 45 of the column (with a value of 0), rather than cell 5 of the column (with the value of the upgraded Trans-Entropy Drive III's). Thank you for the heads up. I have corrected the error and the table now reflects the proper value.

so, tis very clear that you did not even bother to read the wiki page. guess that was a wasted effort lol. but here it is again for those of the non.Neanderthal persuasion:

http://galaxylegion.com/wiki/index.php/ ... _Evolution

In the beginning (feb2010), DECKS were king. decks decks decks decks. no one put points into crew. those who put points into hull and shield without putting into defense found that more damage was being done to them.

Dan saw the lack of ship.build variety (my assumption, but clear from his update comments) and made changes to hull, shield, and the damage cap from april to july 2010 to increase the value of hull and shield and encourage players to put points into crew. Dan seems to think that variety is good for the game and i happen to agree.

Those changes held for 8 months, with only minor grumblings, until the introduction of combat badges and battle market items in feb2011. it was at that point that the pvp advantage of the 'scout of mass destruction' build was deemed too over.powered. higher ranked scouts were able to do magnitudes more damage to higher.ranked ships than they were taking. So, Dan nerfed the damage cap for the 2d time (apr2011), again i think, in the interests of ensuring variety. NOT fairness ... variety.

and NOT compromise ... the scouts that had been successful up until that point had their ship builds completely hollowed out. did some of those players quit ? enough to make Dan think very carefully aboutt making any further changes to the damage cap ? who knows. but at most, 8 months of effort was lost, and some scouts became the earliest SSBs.

No further adjustments to the damage cap formula have been made in the subsequent 35 months, despite much gnashing of hair and pulling of teeth. To my mind, this is clearly because doing so would DECREASE the variety in ship.build types, which Dan values highly to avoid the 'bigger is always better' syndrome that plagues many other online games that already exist. again, something which i happen to agree with.

i would be happy to see something that would make LSB's less disadvantageous but that should NOT come at the expense of SSB's. (the fable of the tortoise and the hare comes to mind ... both speedrankers and LSB's get early benefits, but those that plan for the long.term should benefit in the long.run ... balance is good)

The OP's encouragement for ideas to make researched ship mods relevant INCREASES the variety of ship.builds so gets a +1 from me (and hopefully from Dan).

here are a few other nuggets along those lines:

DarthRavadge 25nov2013: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=38919&start=6 - final research tiers that force a choice between 2 branches (with known results)

DarkMar 13oct2013: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=38365 - super weapon that gets bonuses based on decks

Where's the response for the potential upkeep costs for a rank 3k+ or 4k+ or did you go after the only part of my post you could answer?

Just how much upkeep do you expect people to pay for subpar upgrades. The people that could feasibly afford these values, don't need to do so, with the ap they earn per day getting them more than these scaled modules would.

This idea does nothing but punish the highest ranked LSB's by making them have to eventually pay around 20-30 Bil additional upkeep a day, and that amount increases with the more ranks you gain. I'd hate to see the upkeep costs for a rank 4k player or a rank 5k player.

I did not need to read the wiki and i am well aware of the damage cap changes. but as you said the last change was 35 months ago a lot has changed since then, 35 months ago i dont think dan imagined rank 3k+ ships or players with over 300k ap/h players being able to autorank

This topic is about keeping modules relevent but the root of the issue is that this is impossible.

288 attack
144 defence
460 hull
230 shield

That is what i get from my daily artifact pulls any module i add is meerly because i have the deck space already and it's better than being wasted but long term all modules are redundant and no amount of increase to stats will actually change that, it can delay it but that is it, until there is a fundamental change.

I'd love to hear some ways that would actually balance out modules but just adding to there stats while increasing upkeep is not the way.


Also funny how the two most vocal on the not nerfing SSB's are two low rank ssb's who spend there days zeroing newbs and are "protected" by having such a small build.


I'm still waiting for either one of you to address to address the post where i ran the damage calcs and showed that the way damage cap works at the moment it is actually pointless adding defence researched or not, and your telling me that is not overpowererd and shouldn't be addressed?

I know, but no matter if you run a LBS, HSB or SSB you will still get those Tactical Officers, Engineers and Helmsmen

so for me, the main difrence is a SSB ship with 500 - 1000 decks will with the right modules get an extreamly high deck to optput ratio from those

Cosmic Rail (size 20, Attack +360, Defense +360, Cloak +360, Energy +360, (500% Upgrade) (1 : 18 for attack)
Dominion Tri-Blaster (size 17, Attack +310) (1 : 18.2)


where a HSB with 7.000 decks are stuck using
Heavy Thetacron Cannon (size 51, Attack +358) (1 : 7) or Heavy Quasi-Chaotic Blaster (size 55, Attack +430) (1 : 7.8)
Composite Ray - Type S (size 13, Attack +80, scan 40) (1 : 6.15)
and other low out put modules

so not only does SSB ships have an advantage on dammage cap, but even the deck Space they do have will will proberly end up around 1 : 15 attack pr deck or better for the decks you use for weapons, were you will be Lucky to get a 1 : 10 ratio on a LSB/HSB

but in the end when you end up with 100.000+ Tactical Officers, Engineers and Helmsmen and who knows how many x-cels + brackets, any modul that only give Energy, attack, Defence, shield and/or Hull will be more or less useless no matter what build you are using

instead of nerfing damage cap ... the problem is OBVIOUSLY ...

TOO MANY PRISONERS !

so nerf the prisoner and androids and the long.term problem is solved !

i think PLURVIOUS might be Dan's guinea pig for that experiment ....

- xcharge cells are now 15,000 AP each

- durtanium brackets are now 30,000 AP each

- rescued prisoners are now 40,000 AP each and only give 1 rank point.

- android scientists are now 75,000 AP each and only give 1 scientist .. or maybe half a scientist ? stupid gametes.

- android helmsmen are now 100,000 AP each and give only 1 helmsmen.

BEAUTIFUL UNIVERSE ! LET FREEDOM REIGN !

Aww is someone unable to come up with a valid counter argument so instead decided to spew garbage?

Yes people are growing stronger and that is a factor but it really shows how selfish you are that you'd rather screw over everyone in GL rather than make any change to your precious ssb

What I suggest is adding small % stat bonus upgrades and bonus stat upgrades at random on any module of one tier (that does not get an overall integrity bonus like the merged datanode, but can be used unlimited times for any researched/ ship modules) that is obtainable through artifact productions. This can make a huge difference in possibly balancing the growth of a persons ship with durtanium bracket, rescued prisoners, helmsmen, and x charge cells with the growth of modules and adding more variety to a person's ship no matter what build they are. We must add more artifacts like these to decrease the chances of getting durtanium brackets, rescued prisoners, helmsmen and x charge cells to keep a balance of value and more variety.

I'd say my idea is more efficient and more exciting than just increasing the artifacts points needed to get crew. Allowing just what it gives now still does not create a balance with modules overtime because somebody will find a way to increase their production beyond what is already seen on people with high amounts of artifact production now.

Basically, let's add more variety to what you can get from artifact production that increases the value of modules at random with these upgrades and still have increased bonuses as usual after collecting it to make ship building more interesting for all builds.

What I would like to see is something like this Recearch unlock at say rank 1000

Weapon optimation, start at 100 mil Recearch points for rank 1, 200 mil for rank 2, 300 mil for rank 3 etc etc etc
and what it does is simply increase the attack output of all ship systems with 5% pr rank
no efect on Tactical Officers and no max rank

defence optimation, start at 100 mil Recearch points for rank 1, 200 mil for rank 2, 300 mil for rank 3 etc etc etc
and what it does is simply increase the defence output of all ship systems with 5% pr rank
no efect on Helmsmen and no max rank

energy recearch, start at 100 mil Recearch points for rank 1, 200 mil for rank 2, 300 mil for rank 3 etc etc etc
and what it does is simply increase the energy output of all ship systems with 10% pr rank
no efect on Engineers and no max rank

cost efficiency, start at 50 mil Recearch points for rank 1, 100 mil for rank 2, 150 mil for rank 3 etc etc etc
and what it does is simply decrease your upkeep 1% pr rank, max rank 10

minimazation, start at 200 mil Recearch points for rank 1, 400 mil for rank 2, 600 mil for rank 3 etc etc etc
and what it does is simply decrease the size of recearched modules with 2% pr rank, max rank 10

Relay optimation start at 10 mil Recearch points for rank 1, 20 mil for rank 2, 30 mil for rank 3 etc etc etc
what it does is reduce the energy penalty from relays 10% pr rank, max rank 10

Cloaking Fields start at 500 mil Recearch points for rank 1, 1.000 mil for rank 2, 1500 mil for rank 3 etc etc etc
what it does is, when you attack and your cloak is higher then enemy scan it give you a 0.5% chance pr rank that the defending ship will miss = 0 dammage


it still a crude idear, and I havent worked on the details or checked how long time it would take rank 2000 players to get rank 20 in Weapon optimation = around +20K extra attack on a LSB/HSB ship based on the recearch costs I have listed here
but it's easy to modify the starting cost and %bonus the recearch gives, depending on how easy/hard you want it to be to improve your ship systems this way

what something like this would do, is make recearch matter to High rank players as a Tool to improving theire ships, isntead of just beeing extra credits and something you need for the TC lab and some Legion missions

Sorry. I didn't realize I was required to respond to your whole post. If it's such a big problem, reduce the scaling on the upkeep or eliminate it altogether.

I didn't mean it as an insult or anything, but you clearly had time to pick apart my post to quote it, so i figured you must have read my worries the first time and just ignored them.

Anyway.... When *you* propose an idea on the scale that you have, its courteous to respond to a fundamental criticism.

An increase of 5 Bil upkeep is huge for some players(at best it means they colonize some more toxics, at worse, it could cripple them to only being able to afford upkeep).

My increase would look to be 20Bil, and that just gets higher and higher. That's a huge additional fee and therefore imo showed a fundamental flaw in the design of how the upkeep scaled with rank.

Eliminating the upkeep costs would make this a much more viable option, so i thank you for your response.

to late to fix it, dammage have already been done
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=39105

No reason to punish the rest of us, when you have quite a few players in the 100K+ crew Club already

lol, i try to come up with the most outrageous remedy that i could think of and it's being taken seriously ??? wow. not sarcastic enough ?

of course Dan won't do something like this because it would screw too many people over, just like he will not adjust the damage cap because it would screw too many people over. but making suggestions that go OPPOSITE of what Dan's intentions are (as outlined clearly by the history lesson on the damage cap) will get nowhere.

SSB's are NOT the problem. while my post failed at sarcasm, i think it clearly indicates the problem of runaway artis. your forum link just proves the point. researched ship mods not useful ? SSB's knew that ages ago. not worth installing defense mods ? yep, they are all gathering dust in my cargo, though i did get the velox and aegis mods just in case Dan does make some change that will make those useful. it's called planning ahead.

plenty of people warned that this would happen, but for whatever reason, Dan has not found any suggestion to address this worth following up ... and my opinion is that this is because they fail to address his interest in ensuring the widest variety of ship builds as possible.

the original damage cap lasted 5 months from feb2010 to jun2010 and was nerfed because the vast majority of ships were just decks. the first nerf lasted 9 months from jul2010 to march2010 and was changed after the combat badges came out and Dan saw how the unkillable scouts of mass destruction began to be over.represented in the pvp pool. the current nerf has lasted 34 months. is everyone a SSB yet ? nope. but in a few more years, everyone's rank will catch up to their decks, and then everyone will be. WE WILL ALL EVENTUALLY BE SSB. SOME OF US ARE JUST THERE EARLIER THAN YOU.

nerfing SSB now that they are coming into their own, after LSB's and MSB's have enjoyed the advantages for nearly 3 years ? pretty poor sportsmanship i say. hence the failed attempt at a sarcastic overblown suggestion.

the real issue is that unlimited AP/hr will trump any type of ship build and that is what Dan needs to address if he wants the game to remain healthy. i really don't think that nerfing prisoners and androids would work, but it's as reasonable as beating the straw man of the SSB. i would prefer something more elegant.

main reason I dont see it as a total joke is you are quite right about one thing in the post



that is presisly the problem
the recearch modules was never designed for players having 50K+ or even 100K+ artifact production pr hour

at some point you get to, why upgrade from Heavy Thetacron Cannon to Heavy Quasi-Chaotic Blaster, when all it realy does is add 430 - 358 = 72 attack pr cannon
all it realy does is increase your upkeep, the 72 attack only = 12 PRISONERS, less then a days production for most high rank players

and later it's, why even bother having any weapons installed
max attack you can get from installed systems is somewere around 20K to 25K attack with the latest moduls Dan have added
if you have 100.000K+ Tactical Officers that will be less then 20% of your total acttack and that attack cost you 16 bil+ upkeep every day



your solution...... anyone can see that part is a joke, but you are quite right about the problem beeing "TOO MANY PRISONERS"

Nerfing(not completely removing, just nerfing) effect of crew in PvP ONLY might be a way to go about it. I for one don't give a fook about damage cap outside of pvp so that's the only point where it really matters. Some kind of diminishing return formula, such as square root could work. i.e. your pvp attack/def would be (sqrt(crew)+module)*modifiers.
crew still have full use elsewhere, so they are still awesome. Just not going to make modules obsolete.

ofc, upkeep is the other problem of mod, but if your crews are doing the heavy lifting, I don't think you need to worry about that....

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!




We just need new/better modules.

I agree with you on this. We still want to strengthen LSB ships and not weaken SSB ships.