Having a combined formula seems the best to me. something like rank/4+decks/3+.01*hull maybe

no reason for above numbers. just as an example that seemed reasonable. dont remember numers at lower

Since I am being used as an example here, i think it is time for me to let my voice being known.

First - the argument that it "makes no sense" to being able to add more crew.
Flawed.
We harness energy from ALTERNATE DIMENSIONS.
We jump to those dimensions to avoid attacks.
Our hulls are made of materials that are paper thin, yet more dense then meters of steel - layered atom by atom.

If it helps you imagine it, we are flying massive massive TARDIS's about. The mere concept that we cant "fit" in a certain amount of crew is absurd.

If you have a balance reason to object, then make your points, but do not try to justify that in our science fiction universe where we play with the fabric of space as if it was putty we can not fit beds on our mutli-dimensional ships. We solved that little problem of inertia somewhere on the 4th level defences.

Second -

Guys - you need to realise something. I have been playing this game from near the begining. I slow leveled. I started perhaps a month at latest after the big names like mento. My ship is damned strong because i have put massive amounts of time and work on it. If i am not on for 8 solid hours a day, minimum, even at work and in uni lectures, something is wrong.

The concept of the small ship build existed the moment hull was no longer the damage cap. If you guys were not aware of it, thats a shame, but the moment i learnt of the change, i planned.
I knew it was impossible to 'catch' the artifact production of people with money, so i calculated. I did equations. I have freaking excel graphs. I worked out modules were finite and artifacts infinite, and that was it.

And it worked.

But do not think that i was sitting about drinking cups of coffee while the galaxy was attacking me. You used the weakness of my ship build against me ( and it DOES have them) and tactically bypassed me. Suddenly, everyone is capping against me, despite two years of massive artifact income. I franticaly try to repair, but perhaps one repair in fifteen goes through. Every single second is dangerous, and exciting, and thats why i enjoyed it.

You know, i live in australia. Because of that, my ping is about 250ms. The average americans is more like 30-80ms. They can attack me four times faster than i can attack them. Should I complain this is unfair, and all ships should be forced to attack at the same speed? No, instead i went an attack focused crew structure with a defence focused ship build.

More so, because being inside of australia is out of my control - learning the rules of the game before being a medium level was within them. Gaining an advantage through hard work and system mastery is the core of any good game. It is up to the individual player if they bother doing it or not. I did. You diddnt.

However, if we argue that it is not the system mastery that is at fault, but instead the system that is unfair..

Instead, it seems like the problem is not with the small ship build, but instead with the nature of a game with infintly upgrading ships with fixed attack speed. It comes up first with ssb because thats the nature of their design - to optimise defence at the cost of everything else.

It may suprise you to know that i have put many suggestions on the board, even though most of them negativly effect me most of all due to ship size.

The two that would solve this problem the most are the following:

Offensive artifacts modified by scan for success, and cloak for defence. Suddenly you giant ships that are easy to him have noticable permenant ecm, and cant be debuffed so easily.

Weapons that gain in power the longer they are used on a single target without repairing.
Suddenly a galaxy trying to kill a single ship slowly pour out more and more dps per second as it is pinned down, and even the weakest ships help destroy them.

Dont try to get a solution that criples hard work - namely forcing everyone who is successful, ever, (either in artifact production, planning, or both) to suck and die for your pleasure. As stated, the moment hull is a factor on damage cap, hull is a liability.

Instead, come up with ideas that solve the problem.

Just off the top of my head, a better solution would be repair artifacts becoming less effective each time you use one in a certain period of time. First one 100%, next one 95%, 90%, etc etc.
After all, your real problem is a single target being invincible to a prolonged onslaught.. not the fact my ship design is efficient, not large.

Finally (hopefully) keep in mind that this will effect everybody, not just ssb's (I, personally am not a ssb, but instead a msb)

One of your proposed solutions for example is that the cap is modified for 25 shots capped to kill based on hull

This means that any large (6k decks ship) will start taking extra damage, any time they ever hit that attack button, the moment they have more than 75k hull. Actually, at that point the number itself becomes meaningless, because every attack done to you goes up in damage as your hull raises further. Any hull buff is pointless, as you take more damage to go with that extra health in an exact ratio. Lazuli and fixer become the most useless things ever. High hull ships begin having more difficulty killing npc's, not less.

I would strongly suggest learning the ramifications of changing the damage cap system before proposing any changes guys.

I have to +1 this. i too, knew about the advantages of SSB's a long time ago, but chose to go on my own road, and I've been playing over 2 yrs now. Since Golgotha and I merged our legions a long time ago, i watched him over the years, research the forums, making sacrifices, fighting temptation. And I'm impressed with his diligence and dedication to his build. In the end, it's just a fantasy game, not meant to be totally logical. Also points out the fact that over the years, posters on the forums have help plant the blueprints for SSB's tremendous success, so i say blame them, cause now, it backfires in your face. Want some cheese with your whine?????

I agree with everything you said, I think I even said most of it, not in so many words.

As for a possible change, I would suggest different rules for pvp than other aspects of the game. Such as a probability to 'miss' a target. Having deck scan and cloak be influential in the equation. Where the equation might look something like 1-(your deck/constant)*(enemy scan/your cloak) being the probability of missing the target. Giving smaller ships an advantage of 'maneuverability' and gives larger ships an advantage of being able to equip everything so having scan and cloak boosts the chances of hitting something. several constants can be thrown in to adjust the weight of each component. The Cap would be determined by hull and shields, but only in PVP.

Dont bring hull and shield into it, but cloak and scan are a good idea. The day making your ship stronger actually weakens you, is the day GL will start a slow decent into inactivity. And despite how the big ships are feeling, being a big ship doesnt weaken you, it simply doesnt allow you to get as defensivly strong, as fast, as a smaller ship. They can keep growing tougher and tougher.

Another option might be simply to make critical hits go over your damage cap. To those who dont think ciritcal hits happen, trust me, as a scan/cloakless build you see them against you constantly.

The main question here, is are we trying to fix the problem of a activly defended ship being unkillable fixed, or are we trying to "fix" the fact that small ships take less damage?

I was think hull shields should be added so that even though those with massive HP are still killable, just slow down the advantages of them. maybe make it an exponential decay with rank, similar to that of NPCs hull shields grow with rank but the damage cap grows faster, same idea but inverse.

-1 to this. SSbs are already at a disadvantage with lack of cool modules, energy and AP. The only way you can get golgotha strong is to join a SUPER strong legion and lets be honest not everyone is going to be looking for SSBs so its not a pandemic. And like Ejja said most of the high ranks HAVE geminis which do, do major dmg. its not like its a walk in the park for ssb to kill a big ship either. and your telling me that Gol is the only person who can hold of 3 legions at once on exotica? maybe you should look at yourselfs and not hate on him for his planning(I dont mean this in a rude way i just mean instead of trying to weaken your adversary why not strengthen yourself more?). TBH it seems more like the lag is the issue here and not golgothas ship.

-1 to this. SSbs are already at a disadvantage with lack of cool modules, energy and AP. The only way you can get golgotha strong is to join a SUPER strong legion and lets be honest not everyone is going to be looking for SSBs so its not a pandemic. And like Ejja said most of the high ranks HAVE geminis which do, do major dmg. its not like its a walk in the park for ssb to kill a big ship either. and your telling me that Gol is the only person who can hold of 3 legions at once on exotica? maybe you should look at yourselfs and not hate on him for his planning(I dont mean this in a rude way i just mean instead of trying to weaken your adversary why not strengthen yourself more?). TBH it seems more like the lag is the issue here and not golgothas ship.

lol page 3 and it's the attack of the small ship builds.

The main problem is having an indestructible ship while guarding Exotica. There are other more realistic arguments in here worth looking at but I'm wondering if rank added in the equation would do the trick to make it semi even. Granted a smaller ship is harder to hit and would dodge blasts or blasts would just miss but this is where scan and cloak would come in as you guys said earlier.

Darth was talking about the hull mass being a factor and should be put in the equation and Golgatha was saying that he had energy beings and paper thin hull or whatever lol.

Having a smaller ship should have some advantages but not as much as it does now in my opinion. I know we're not in the real world here but in reality there is no damage cap. There is power vs defense and hull.
When 3 of the top 5 legions were attacking Golgatha I saw 3 - 4 blue lag lines in between clicks. I was wondering if he was having the same problem but over time I figured out that he didn't because he couldn't be disabled. I did max damage to him which I believe was 311. I'm not sure how many others were attacking him but if they all were hitting him every 3 to 4 seconds with 311 damage I don't think that would be much of a problem to defend.
I know my damage cap is over 3k. I don't ever see it but I hit others that are my size and I can hit that on them.

A tiny ship couldn't or shouldn't be able to hit a monster ship with that much power.
It has the same weapons and artifacts that our bigger ships have but it also has the same power which in reality it couldn't.
We research the same weapons, defense and hull and choose to have what we have by fitting as many as we can to make it that way.

So if we're all going to have the same attack power, a smaller ship can't have the defense as the larger ships. We're thick skinned monster ships that should be able to have more hull and defense because we have room for it.
Golgatha you said that you had paper thin hulls or whatever. If that's the case, Dan needs to make that a priority for SSB's to research then.
It's not real in the game yet.

We all have the same Helmsman, Scientists, TO's and Engineers even though we can't see what the last two look like.
Those are a constant and don't have special powers for each race or size of ship ... yet.

I believe I said this earlier ....... I believe Dan made this SSB for new players in the game so they wouldn't get bullied as easy and it's a good idea.
It starts to be problem as we go farther in rank.

I'm just trying to make some sense of this. Hull/shield/defense/rank in an equation. I thought it was already figured out in the beginning of the game by the things that we researched and could fit in our ships.
I understand that the game evolves just like everything else but sometimes things need to make some sense.

To everyone that wants to be a tiny ship, I think Dan should let us have the option to take our decks out.
I said it before and I'll say it again. You couldn't pay me to do it but if someone wants to go back and missed the chance or whatever I think they should have that option.

Having said that I don't think that there should be that many benefits to be that little.

Now feel free to attack me lol

I agree With blitz, this is clearly abusing the game mechanics, this has to change.

The problem i have with this build, is all the work i put in to make my ship strong is all for nothing when it comes to a SSB why if i have more attack and more defense do i get hit up to 10x what i am hitting, that is the part i have issues with. Sure damage cap people make our attack give a small figure but dont have the opponent do more return damage that what i am doing to them.

Totally ridiculous you can have 10k more attack and defense you hit the guy for what 80 and he returns 800 to you. if that's the case just ignore your ship and play the planet game. there is no need to do any research other than buildings. no need for any special modules.

pointless and lets not bring up that they worked hard to get that we also worked just as hard to get the builds we have.

Just quickly Blitz, you do realise that defense in this game, if you read the module info, has nothing to do with how much damage a ship can absorb but more so to do with the ships engines and how quickly it can move?

On a planet with gravity, that actually means that smaller ships with high defense would actually have a movement advantage over you (in space, it would be different because the lack of gravity returns the advantage to the larger ships) since they are not as effected by gravity as larger ships. They require less propulsion to move further, faster.

We have the same engines with higher defense and have a huge outer hull that a little ship couldn't penetrate in reality. As big as our ship is means that we should be able to fit more hull.
If Dan needs to have the small ship builds then he needs to give them special research or something because they have the exact same tech as we do and it's not working properly if you look at the whole picture.

Your analogy has some merit but we're not talking about gravity on a planet. We're talking about a ship in orbit in outer space in zero gravity fighting off 3 legions because that's where the fight is happening.

@ the lag: Perhaps if you didnt have 3 legions clicking as fast as they can at the same time you wouldnt lagg? his ship isnt indestructable defending a planet you just need a better attack strat that would require LESS ships so you dont have any lag.

@ your dmg cap: Its already been proven that a low rank with enough EMPs can hit 3k can on any high rank perhaps you should look into the debuffing issue aswell?

@ tiny ship: These ships are merely our avatars for the game, why should we implement realistic properties that seem to be more benefical to yourselfs? I mean the SSB threat is atm like 4-5 ships in the high ranks the rest of the SSBs are prolly slow ranking in the 200s so they arent going to be a MAJOR SSB influx for years, cosindering alot of players want the cool modules on their ships its not going to be a issue.

@ thick skin monsters: Yea until you are debuffed to hell in back then you have paper thin hull and getting capped every hit.

@ Dan's creation of SSB: Dan didnt create the SSB he just set the scale, its just that certain players learned that they can be a PITA to kill if they have a lower dmg cap. I learned this and used it, pumped my pionts into Tacts and created a decent ship. Couldnt do much cept pvp but its worth it. Also again to become Golgotha strong you need a legion with GREAT AP.

@ dmg cap equation: i believe some one posted the equation some were. Defence is a buffer for it.

@ if you want to be a SSB: Yes i would instantly and i wouldnt miss anything. I regret getting these extra 1.8k decks and a 3.7bil increase in upkeep. The game was alot funner for me as a SSB, as far as energy instead of my 4k i would have 2k so its about the only negative lol.




No? abusing is gaining without loss or inhibition. as a SSB you lose chances to have cool modules and gain lvls faster and complete missions. it inhibits you from scanning, cloaking, NPCing and being able to just have a massive amount of energy or attack w.o a crap ton of Rank pionts poured into Engs.



again this is a issue about 4-5 ships, and i doubt they are hitting 10 times regularly. I know I can make cap on you if i debuff you but im not a SSB how does that factor into your equation? Actually as a SSB i loved to research all the cool stuff yea planetary is a primary for a SSB but who doesnt make that a priority regardless of your ship style? Your right both worked hard for your ships so why(i know your prolly just venting but ill say it anyway) bring up the issue if its really not a issue?



Its a fantasy game not meant to be realistic. And SSB isnt a option you can pick at the beginning of the game there is no Choose ship style [Small Ship Build] Or [Work your way to Universe Annilator]. becoming is a Choice, a strategy, a style. Its not set in stone that golgotha will be a SSB for ever he can always change, there is no need for a special research tree. And Blitz who says they have the same ship tech as you? they are a SSB how can they fit 8 quasis on their ship? they have the ability to but they prolly cant fit it on their ship. and it works exactly how its supposed to, ssb is the counter balance to the HUGE MASSIVE ships that this game has. Everything needs checks and balances.

Three flaws here.

First, you don't have more defense. After mods, the defense of a ship is then based upon helmsman, which means the number is variable. Size of ship does not determine defense of ship. That said, compare a ship with 5,000 decks to 2,000 decks. With comparative defensive stats, around the gravitational pull of a planet, the smaller ship beats you hands down, since the gravity affects your movement based upon size and thrust. This is somewhat corrected in a vacuum, but even still, size still does play a part.

Second, you have a huge outer hull? In the words of Colonel Roy Mustang, 'I can't believe you gave me a bigger target! Did you think size would increase your chance of winning?'. All size does is increase how big the target is. On top of that, it means you need MORE hull to compensate for your size. Durtanium brackets are less useful because they cover less of your ship because your ship is bigger. That means hull becomes less effective as you get bigger. Smaller ships utilise hull layering better than any larger ship will.

Thirdly, the size of the ship attacking you does not effect its ability to penetrate your hull. The type of weapon attacking you determines how effectively it affects your hull. Size does not play into that equation.



But it's not how well you fit hull, it's a question of how much extra hull you need for the same amount of layering compared to a smaller ship. Remember, these hulls are paper thin, but you need more sheets of it because your ship is bigger. A smaller ship does not suffer that problem, meaning that if you have the same amount of hull, the smaller ship has more layers of hull because it needs less to cover the size of its ship.

For a real world example, get a die and another cube roughly 3x bigger. Then, get two identical A4 sheets of paper. See how many times you can wrap a single A4 sheet around a dice and around the larger cube. I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and say that it fits more times around the die.

See the difference?

Few things here -

Firstly, i know i went on a rant blitz, but the least you could do is read it properly if you are going to quote me.

I said that your argument that we cant fit that much crew into a small space is incorrect, because we have unlimited space due to the technology we researched early on in our ships careers, and that thus any argument has to be from a gameplay perspective, not the flimsy crew size one. Run on sentence for the win. Please read hansolocal's example as to why equal defence on a smaller ship is actually superior. Paticularly the example about wrapping objects with paper.

Second - and this is the big one - you guys have some kind of basic mindset problem where you think bigger automatically equals better. It does not, so making even more arguments that "our big ships should automatically win", fail. The mechanics do not support it, the genre doesnt support it, and life does not support it. Hell, its a genre standard for the small ship to defeat the giant evil ship. Smaller ships can have the same power easily - story wise, they just have to be more sophisticated, or commanded by a superior leader. The same amount of defence spread over a larger object equals weaker defence in all areas, meaning between two ships with equal firepower the larger one gets stomped.

Third, - my damage cap is actually slightly over 1000, not 300 something. Technically, im not even a small ship build, which would involved limiting my decks to my rank damage cap. Instead, i am a medium ship build - 2049 decks in total. The issue was I also have massive defence when needed - I even had a Teverazon cranking at the time. I beleive it was something like 50k defence when under attack. I can easily say that I have higher defence than many of the ships attacking me had attack, as well as a smaller damage cap. Even without the small ship, i just _have better stats_ that most of the guys attacking me, both offensivly and defensivly.

Fourth - again, the damage system has been beneficial since near the very begining of the game for smaller ships. There have been dozens and dozens of threads on the subject, which always got insulted down by the big guys who would repeat "Fast level, big ships are the key to power".

Fifth - I live in australia. The lag you complain about - sometimes i just get day by day. (though normally it is more about 1 second per click) However, i do agree that it is an issue. It has nothing to do with my ship defence however.

tldr; dont claim that ships should be weaker either offensivly or defensivly because you believe a requirement for power is huge size. Thats your imagination being limited, and not reality.

One final note. Guys. If i was NOT a medium ship build, i would take three times the damage. That means, if i had three times the hull i would be in exactly the same invincible status. Suprise, if i installed hull and went lazuli fixer i would instantly be unkillable, as at no point did you even get me past half hull. So i repeat - the real issue is that anyone with sufficient hull is invincible due to current game mechanics.

In addition, what Golgotha said earlier still stands. People who become SSBs put up with a lot of things normal builds don't have to worry about for a long time after the first 200 or so ranks (swapping modules in and out, not having sufficient cargo space to hold uninstalled special modules and such, and they gain a boost from not-as-efficient modules that are still better than crew, which keep the normal ship about on par with SSBs for a long time). They do that so they can have a chance to catch up or be better than average at higher ranks.

In addition, you think PVP is ruined now? Give everyone the option to lose decks to become a SSB, and let's just see how ruined PVP would be then, when 90% of high ranks (it seems like much of the advice I see from high ranks are "limit your decks" - maybe the number of up and coming SSBs are a result of, I don't know, players taking that advice?) are suddenly clones of the SSB that's "ruining" Exotica for you. You think having one of them on Exotica is bad, try having two dozen of them there.

Tl;dr: Up until becoming a higher rank, a SSB has a lot of negative trade offs when starting that can only really be solved by having a ton of AP either due to being a multi or reset, or immense slow ranking. As normal/slightly large ship for my rank, I'm able to take a lot of the SSBs that have played for nearly 2x my game time in a fight that about evens out. Of course, as their production gets higher when they gain ranks, their ships will get relatively stronger.