Okay so weapons that trigger a % damage didn't seem to go over well how about a ctl item that does 20% of the remaining hull+ shields maybe as high as 20%

Crimson ship bomb or something (not good with names)

Costs
5 ship bots 50 crimson obelisks and 50 containment missiles.

-1, you can use emps if you want to spend less energy taking someone out now.
If somewhere were to bomb someone with 5-10 you'd hardly have to work at all for a disable.

They do completly different things, and are for different needs. OP's idea is to deal with base ships with 200k+ hull. EMP's dont do much at all once you hit those levels.

But on that subject of artifacts to deal with tough ships....

Fluffy, what if EMP's instead raise your damage cap by 10%?
Or as well as lowering your defence?
Or a seperate artifact that did that?

I am not sure how i feel about being spammed by a 20% less health artifact though... using 5 would get someone to 30% health instantly, and you could use a lot more than that before someone could respond.

Possible balances are a delay between uses, a max amount it can bring you down to, time taken for the artifact to take effect (Fluffy is Charging Hyperbeam!) etc.

raising the damage cap using arts, pretty much destroys SSB/MSB entirely so no to that and anything even remotely accessible in excess like EMPs would just break the game.

the % can be reduced I did want to to be somewhat high though since it much more limited than the mod idea in the other tread. Also an increasing the shipbot needed to make them will limit how many people will use. I rather restrict the use in means of availability than in usage just because as time goes on the will become more necessary to use them to kill someone and their availability will increase as more people gain more production.

I don't like the idea of a timer just because it defeats the purpose, which is to be able to be faster than the person defending.

I am not a pokemon

Add something like this to Containment Missiles, EMP Spheres, Disarming Bombs, Tactical Inner Bypasses, Krionite Torpedoes, and Chaostatic Inhibitors and there truly would be no point whatsoever to building a ship with any semblance of defense.

well except traps, nanos, restorers, cages, non-removal buffs, the fact that damage cap is pretty much static for a vast majority of the galaxy and hull and shields grows infinitely then I would agree.

i do like the idea for a gun on the ship that can trigger randomly like in your other thread . but imnot to big on it being used as a arty.

It's a trade off either a random proc from a weapon that has to be a static % of total hull+shields or an art with diminishing returns, most seemed to want the diminishing returns hence this idea. Can't have the weapon have diminishing returns do to lag and a static % of total hull+shields on an art well that's basic math to figure out ow many is needed to kill someone. I'd like both tbh, weapons to be introduced first then in like 6-8 months the ctl, when more can survive attacks from multiple ships.

Ah, ok. I follow now. Let me make a minor correction to my previous post in that case.

I think add 10 or so acf to the recipe. It'l mean its very rare because of the cost but still a option for exceptional situations. A bit like the kritonite torpido at low ranks.

The current system gives them an unfair advantage. This doesn't need to be implemented immediately, but eventually. There are already plenty of ships that while online are able to fend off several ships indefinitely. Imagine an entire legion that can.

Even if it a high ranking ability that has a 15 minute timer. That way multiple ships can use it on one and give advantage to numbers over the individual.



The shipbots are meant to be the bottle neck. They are not able to be sent and have no other use. If this becomes too over used simply increasing the amount needed for the recipe would be fine.

While I agree that one ship should not be able to fend off several other comparable ships indefinitely, this isn't the way to fix that. Fix kriospam and nanospam. Multiple attackers should have an advantage, but what you're suggesting would give them an unfair advantage. While I do feel that a defender has every right to use the kitchen sink to defend themselves, a limiter on cages, KVTs and Nanos is needed desperately (see Gaga-tha's signature quoting a statement I made).

I personally don't like limits in the way you are speaking, mainly because it weakens people in long outstanding 1v1 battles and basically just makes having a larger APH meaningless. Great you have 100k+ ap and thousands of nanos...you can only use 100 after that you better hope they stop. Someone with 0 disables spamming you all day to max your cage limit, or just NPCing. Way too many disadvantages in your way of compensating.

The unfair advantage you speak of can be reduced by just reducing the availability of this, making the cost really high so people can't spam them, a timer for using it, making it an ability, etc. I am actually like the ability option more, because then 5 ships attacking > 1 strong ship with lots of ap attacking.

I said limiter not limit. Slow down the spam (~5s or so) between uses of each KVT/Cage/Nano/Restorer, not hard-cap the total uses. Long 1v1 battles? Two comparable ships the defender should be able to survive if they have Geminis since the attacker has to pause to repair their own ship periodically. Zero disables? That's a whole other argument. One that I fully agree with you that there has to be some consequence to throwing artis. NPCing? The only thing you need Cages for at the level you're making this suggestion for is the Grivv and you know what they say, "It's a dog-eat-dog world." Sometimes the RNG shines on you, sometimes she spits on you. You can't get the drop from every single share.

"Fixing" an unfair advantage by creating an opposite unfair advantage is just... Let's be realistic for a second. An attacker can already take out ~1/3 of a ships hit points in one shot with a KrioTorp. Adding a % attack arti/ability just leaves a defender out to dry. They would have no chance at all. The whole point of Geminis, Xecti racial bonus, unwipeable buffs, etc. was to balance the fact that attackers had an overwhelming advantage. It's only since APH went nuts and high rank people achieved enormous amounts of hull strength that that advantage swung in favor of the defender. Moderating their ability to turtlespam is the better option compared to the ability to have an online player dead before they even know they are being attacked (which is what your suggestion would amount to).

yes in a 1v1 battle the defender should win, with limiters the defender is at unfair advantage, because they are dealing with opening and closing tabs so that when the timer expires they can use the trap or whatever. At the initial attack the split second krio spam might be the thing that saves them.

Most of the arguments were for limits so not even bothering going to say much about them, we both agree hard caps are not needed, those were just examples of how someone can use their cap up before a fight or during one and get screwed over.

This is more to compensate for the extra hull/dense now that APH is getting more ridiculous, and yes it is basically can we kill them before they defend atm, but changing the defender late stage with timers screws the newer defends and we are back to where we were before.

More over, the time and amount of hits required still becomes infinite. limiters would only slow down the problem for so long before we get to the point that we are can't kill them even with a 1 minute delay. The only way we will be able to kill each other forever is if we have a repeatable % dealing attack. This is more long term problem. Eventually it will take HOURS to kill someone while they are offline.


look at us...having a civil, intelligent debate with no snide remarks, only took 6 months.

I don't like this much because:
1. it's a limited use recipe in CTL. You saw how ppl reacted to the ally recipe, this is more or less the same. regardless of whether the items is bad, it's a bad place to stick it at. (a mission that requires arti to complete or something would be better IMO)
2. it hurts some builds more than others (namely SSB and MSB) and thus is unfair.

Frankly, I see nothing wrong with one player fending off multiple others IF and WHEN he is online. Because it doesn't make the player invincible, as he can't be online 24/7 (if he is, he is probably breaking some fb/gl rules...)

1. How is it limited use? Is doesn't removed 20% of their shield+ hull forever, even if it did it still isn't limited.

2. Those builds were not really intended, they were side effects of changing the damage cap formula from using shields/hulls which prevent the issue entirely, but creates a hard cap on number of hits making brackets and xcharge cells pretty much pointless.

3. Have you ever tried to take exotica? Only way you are getting through the guards is killing catching them all offline or going through the ones online. Get enough of these invincible online ships they can cover the planet 24/7 and that completely defeats the purpose of the planet. Also individual can easily be on most hours of the day if they are retired, out of school or have no job. It would be a sad life, but still possible.

1. I meant the RECIPE is limited use, not the product. the fact is you only need to craft the item so many times before the recipe becomes a dead duck and just sit there. Please parse properly.

2. What is "intended" is not for you to decide. Until Dan come outright and say so(if I missed it, sorry, plz point me to it), you can't' say it's not intended. And given a fixed rate of proc on the weapon, there will EVENTUALLY be more or less a hard cap on the number of hits for a ship to be killed. 1% proc rate, for example, will mean 500 hits if it's 20% per hit. Ofc, u can be unlucky and it gets higher sometimes but that will be the average. And frankly, by probability you will rarely see 1000, as good as a hard cap(albeit quite a high one)

3. If there is a problem with exotica, fix exotica. Don't go poke something to fix something else. As for players who are online a lot, I do believe they deserve the benefits of not getting disabled for their time investment.

1. Again I am failing to understand how it is limited use. You can craft it as many times as you want and use them all on one or more enemies.

2. I can infer intent based on actions, especially when he later changed the formula again to force the to grow their decks. Getting off topic though, as I said previously, those builds only reach the point I speak of sooner that's it. They still have the option to increase their ship if the change hurts their build to the point they think it is pointless.

3. Being able to fend off 5+ ship while online is completely unrealistic, especially when they are focusing fire. Exotica is not the problem, just a location for this to arise and become apparent. Believe whatever you want, doesn't mean that they should be immortal to several ships attacking them.

damn, I remove point #1... it's what happens when I read stuff at 4 AM..... For some reason the word weapon stuck in my head after reading the whole line....

#2: Changing builds tend to hurt SSB, they suffer a lot of disadvantages in keeping the ship SSB and the aftereffect of those advantage will remain after the change(such as generally worse planet set) while advantage is gone.

#3：In space combat, while it's not possible for one ship to BEAT 5 ships(of equal strength) at once, it's not exactly unrealistic for one ship to be able to escape death from 5. Granted the realistic solution is constant warp jumping etc to keep away from the enemy as opposed to repairing the ship over and over, but the overall effect is the same. Long as all you want to do is run and stay alive, you can escape death. So immortal is perfectly fine.