Rebalancing SSB, MSB, and LSB.. from a MSB perspective
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Pongoloid
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:54 am Posts: 988
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+1 to the original idea.
Love making crits more dramatic; love adding more everyday PVP values to scan and cloak.
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Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:34 am |
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squodge
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:38 am Posts: 104
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I'm not sure a percentage of damage related to the enemy's hull is a good idea, e.g. if I critically strike you, the damage I cause is (say) 5% of your hull. Isn't that way too high? It means that, theoretically I could down you in 20 hits (after your shields are gone, that is). Wouldn't it make more sense if a critical strike did the maximum damage based on the damage cap?
Also, I thought SSB was a strategy type that some players choose to exploit - it can't be the most exciting way to play the game! I dare say, the players with LSB possibly enjoy the most variety from the game. I'm a MSB, I stopped adding decks a few months ago, so I'm working towards the lower end of MSB. In line with another thread (about improving final tier research modules), I don't bother with researched modules for weapons, shields, defence or scan. As mentioned already, scan modules take up a LOT of space!
So really, the SSB's lose out on scan. In a sense, it means their enemies are more likely to critically strike them than vice versa. In fact, their enemies may well have more cloak installed, which reduces their chances of being critically stricken. I feel it all balances out in the end.
I'm not sure I've PVP-ed against any SSB's, but if I have then I'm pretty sure it wasn't impossible to take them down. As others have said, if you're persistent then it's possible to take down most players (with the right stash of artis!).
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Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:08 pm |
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Flux
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:00 am Posts: 804
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Golgotha wrote: First, Critical Hits. Critical hits need to be more frequent, more obvious, and ignore the damage cap. I suggest that a critical hit deals a bonus 5% of the ships total hull in damage. This will instantly go a long way to balancing ship power. Small ships take waaay less damage on average, but if that large ship manages to "lock on", the damage is overwhelming. And the SSB of course would struggle to ever crit the larger ship. ... I am happy to find the specifics if these ideas interest people - I honestly feel like it could go a long way to making each ship choice valid, and thus more competitive. Critical hits - I suggest to make only simple change for now due balancing: allow critical hits regardless of damage cap. I would keep the current % for critical hits (I know no valid reason to fix it to 5%) but I would support to change the frequency of critical hits. On other hand, I am (in my mind) playing with the idea, what is easier to hit fully - a tiny cruiser or a star destroyer? As possible balancing between SSB and LSB, what about double probability/chance of critical hit on LSB ship compare to SSB? This would consider also the ships with MSB, which basically would not be impacted by this change. Here would come a math/rule where LSB starts and where SSB ends. "bonus 5% of the ships total hull in damage" if for me OP way too much - lucky day/extra lot of scan = max 20 hits to disable a ship. that was last possible back till rank 150. Scan primary purppose is for scanning planets or PvP element? What a hell would people do with the saved energy? I dont like the idea to boost activity of Petics or Rusty (sry boys) and other PvP champions. Yes, I know that for new battle market items would be easier to gain the needed badges... BUT some items are simple planned to do not be easy to obtain. So do not fix something, what is not broken.. just new!
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Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:47 pm |
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StolenPlanet
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:54 am Posts: 1208
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draxsiss wrote: care to provide a reason other than "no" I can say "yes" just as easily, give me a well thought out argument as to why this is a bad idea please? Had to work, so didn't mean for it to come across as only trolling. Golgotha explained it dead on. The only other part that I would add, which I have mention in other similar threads, is that a move as drastic as getting rid of the damage cap also punishes people who have been planning and playing their ship builds for a long time. Think of it this way, suppose Dan suddenly said, all ships with more than 4k decks have to start paying 10 times their upkeep. Now your 20 billion a day goes to 200 billion. Now if you knew that at the start of the game, you might have decided to limit your ship to 3999 decks. Or you might have decided to add more mining planets along the way. Or you might have made any number of other decisions based on the available information. To change the damage cap is essentially to "move the goal posts." What's even worse is, in some previous threads, the only reason for it even being suggested is because folks were getting beat. In other words, we both played the game fair and square by the rules explained to us, but when I start to lose, I ask that the game be "balanced" because you are out playing me? really? wtf? If that's the case, then I am gonna ask Dan to "balance" my artifact production so that I can catch up with those 200k APR guys! hahah Still, having said all that, I realize that the game is steadily evolving. It is not the same game it was 3 years ago. I have seen what I consider to be great content additions and I have seen things that I disagreed with. *cough, action limits, *cough All in all, Dan is working to make sure the game remains playable for as many people as possible for as long as possible. If gun happy people like me were allowed to raid you 500 times in a day, some folks might quit. Likewise, if players continue watching their ship lose to the enemy ship even though they show on paper as having more attack and defense, that will be discouraging to many folks. Golgotha offered some reasonable solutions that were well within the role playing aspect of the SSB and MSB models. Right now they aren't really hurt at all from not having enough cloaking or scanning. As long as legions can share planets, someone else can always scan a good rock for them. Besides, we have also entered into a stage in the game where you really don't have to scan much at all. All you need is a steady supply of CTP and you can bid on ready made 15x-22x planets.
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Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:16 am |
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bawck
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:48 pm Posts: 6
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I agree that the defensive effects of using ssb are a bit extreme but they make sense - small targets are harder to shoot.
"A smaller ship build with fewer decks should be harder to target and hit then a larger ship. So the game gives smaller ships a relative advantage by capping the amount of damage other ships can do to them. " -wiki
I like to think of the scene in Star Wars where Han lands the millennium falcon on the much larger imperial ship and they think he got away ... with that being said it also makes sense that more scanning should make you more likely to hit your target and more cloak would make you less likely to be hit.
"Increases the chance your ship will critically strike in combat" - scrolling over the question mark next to scan on the ship tab of the GL facebook app page (with no buffs)
"Reduces the chance far a critical strike in combat" - scrolling over the question mark next to cloak on the ship tab of the GL facebook app page
However I am not currently aware (please correct me if I am wrong) of scan or cloak having any actual effect on combat damage.
"Damage per shot = tanh( attack*(random(0.6 to 1.666)) / (defense * 5) ) * damagecap " wiki
This equation implies that only attack, defense, damage cap, and a random number generator effect combat damage.
It seems to me that making scan and cloak contribute to some sort of critical attack is in holding with spirit of this game (and might have been the original intent).
In the case that I am wrong about scan or cloak having no effect on combat damage, I apologize.
-Bach
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Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:16 am |
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Flux
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:00 am Posts: 804
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bawck wrote: "A smaller ship build with fewer decks should be harder to target and hit then a larger ship. So the game gives smaller ships a relative advantage by capping the amount of damage other ships can do to them. " -wiki
for everything quoted from Galaxy legion wiki: It is written by players! It can be edited by players! It is not rock solid statement!
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Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:09 am |
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skeletoes
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:34 am Posts: 115 Location: That place with the thing
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Personally I don't care what you all think but any time Golgotha comes up with a suggestion I'm like wow I could see this being in the game and working +1 from me every time
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Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:42 pm |
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Clangeddin
Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 12:46 pm Posts: 292
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Golgotha wrote: I love my ship. I love the way i have to micromanage to play, to select specific modules for each task, etc.
However, there is a reason that everyone these days wishes that they have less decks. Smaller ships now dominate the galaxy, and other than ease of use, it is hard to justify being a larger build.
That needs to change. And there is an easy way to do it.
Cloak and Scan.
As a SSB or MSB, cloak and scan are difficult to accumulate. At over 2k decks, I still only rock 7k of each, with practically everything else uninstalled. This is where a LSB should shine, and only a few changes would be needed to make this happen. I suggest two changes to how they currently work to make this work.
First, Critical Hits. Critical hits need to be more frequent, more obvious, and ignore the damage cap. I suggest that a critical hit deals a bonus 5% of the ships total hull in damage. This will instantly go a long way to balancing ship power. Small ships take waaay less damage on average, but if that large ship manages to "lock on", the damage is overwhelming. And the SSB of course would struggle to ever crit the larger ship.
Second, Artifact usage. Large ship builds stock huge amounts of scanners and counter measures... and it doesn't really do much outside of hacking. To be fair, hacking is very popular with the release of the latest ally, but it does not equal the disadvantages in damage. I suggest that all artifacts used offensively gain a chance of failure. Hang on, I am going somewhere here. If the default failure, represented by physically dodging, electronic countermeasures, and firewall systems is say, a 20% chance, all ships have a chance to defend themselves. That chance is then modified by the respective cloak and scan of each ship. If you have lots of cloak, and your opponent little scan, you can counter more artifacts used against you. After all, your ship stocks literally hundreds of square kilometers of cloaking systems, designed to resist electronic warfare. If you have little cloak, and your opponent lots of scan, their computers processing power can overwhelm your defences, their artifacts effecting you each time.
What does this mean? Small ships may need to use salvos of artifacts to affect their larger counterparts, while large ships easily overwhelm their smaller targets with their banks of scanners.
Both these ideas i have suggested before, including more specific maths behind each suggestion. I am happy to find the specifics if these ideas interest people - I honestly feel like it could go a long way to making each ship choice valid, and thus more competitive. I love that you are bringing this up again .. +1 To those that are detracting the 5% of hull as the crit.. It's not that much .. 100k hull it's a 5k shot.. and if you have evenly built ships (scan/cloak wise) the values should offset and you should rarely crit.. but now if you are running low scan because you are a ssb or msb, you're already taking 500-1500 less damage PER HIT because of the damage cap, so a 10% crit rate (if it is that much) means 1 in 10 hits you do an extra 4k damage which still places the advantage in combat to the smaller ship build just less so. This also scales very well since it's on hull which improves as you get stronger while your decks still stay the same. I find this very fair and still allows for the various play styles.... No one is saying that ssb/msb are bad .. they are just a LITTLE broken .. if you are a ssb at keys with 100k hull you can NEVER be disabled no matter how many EMPS, Gifts are thrown at you because its physically impossible if even 30 guys are hitting you at the same time doing damage cap (assuming the game lag would even allow that) to ever get disabled as you just have all the time in the world to hit a nano every 2-3 seconds.. LSB's can almost ALWAYS be taken down if 10 guys are spamming and hitting at the same time ..
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Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:55 pm |
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StolenPlanet
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:54 am Posts: 1208
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"you just have all the time in the world to hit a nano every 2-3 seconds.. LSB's can almost ALWAYS be taken down if 10 guys are spamming and hitting at the same time .."
Um, that's all the large ship has to do too. I would be willing to host a challenge if you like, but I think anyone with a decent ship should be able to hold off 10 other attackers; especially if all they are doing is repairing.
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Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:32 pm |
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