Change Base Research To Group Effort!
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QCubed
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:50 am Posts: 569
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. . . . Here is the Executive summary of my suggestion: wrote: * Make Base Research into a few Separate Tech Trees that are researched ON THE BASE TAB, and any member may help do that research * Allow All members who have been in the legion 1 week to contribute as much energy, complex Tech Parts, Exotic Matter, and Research points to the base. * Make Research spent this way count towards your % contribution to the base. * There are several methods by which you can deal with the change in research.
. . . . Here is this more fleshed out with an explanation of why there is a problem with how it is currently, and how this is a better system + a bit on how it would work: wrote: Base Research is a #$&*@, and every member who wants to contribute has to research the tree independently in order to contribute on a given level.
However there are two problems with that, which affect people similarly regardless of
1. In a % Contribution split the base only gives you a percentage share based off your energy, tech Parts, and Exotic matter, the Research you do doesn't count for anything. Why this is a problem:
-- A few major players spend alot of their research points avoiding doing important ship upgrades to get the base ahead for levels, and that is a detriment on them. -- Lower level players are not able to get to the proper level of research to contribute to the base and can never get a share, and the research is completely wasted for them until they get to the level where they can contribute to the base, and then they need to spend massive amounts of energy to be able to equal contributions made my larger players from the beginning -- A player could contribute 100% of all resources through level 3, and then not bother getting any base research for ages while others get to his research level, and upgrade the base to the probably level 6 before he even cares about his split getting lower.
2. In a Communist distribution of the resources (% share = total members) there is literally no good incentive for anyone to do the research themselves or contribute to base levels in the first place unless they are officer or leader level since the increases in pay-out are minor compared to the needed out-lay
-- So a few top players do all the research and make all the contributions to the base because they want to succeed and help out. -- Lower level members get more than a couple of the lowest level techs for the initial help, but a base gets up 3 to 4 pretty quickly, and soon all the low level players just don;t care, why spend billions in research points when they can coast? They don;t get any direct benefits from them, and it would take them months or years to reach the level required to contribute to the next level base. -- Even top players will take several months of concentrated effort to get to the right level of Base Research.
So it's generally unfair to most members to have base research work the way it does. What DOES make sense is for base Research to work more like the Theory tab and/or Energy contributions.
In a % split base the research you did personally can count towards your % split. That way just doing the research to get to the next level will allow a low-level member to directly increase his % contribution as he works to the level where he can contribute energy etc.
However this does give a bit of an issue, in that some members who have done a lot of the research will suddenly bump up quite a bit with low levels now only able to contribute research as they go up the chain, still a better place than before though. However this doesn't really help with the communist base.
A solution which would work for BOTH % based and communist based bases would be something like this:
Take the whole Base Research tree and move it onto the legion base itself, much the way the Theory tab works.
Legion members would log onto the base and contribute research collectively towards the base. Research points applied to the base would count towards your % contribution to the base, and since you are always at the appropriate research level you can always contribute more of your other resources to the base and concentration on putting research into your ship without being left behind if you are a lower level.
Thus people can pump-up their contribution by helping research the base's features as well as by donating energy, EM, and Tech Parts! And if it's a communist output for the base it won't force several high level players to work individually to get the next level base to contribute since all players can always contribute in some way.
A Side benefit of this would be allowing to differentiate the base research into separate trees: Weapons, Defenses, Shields, Cloak, Structure, Production, some members could be working on different areas of the base seeking to get specific improvements available to purchase, or to increase the size of the base to fit more modules.
Of course just like theory tab, the research spent this way would go towards the player's personal research point rankings in-game.
To accommodate this should be rather easy in one of two ways.
A) Players have done a set amount of research already, take that amount done by each, and put it in the base research tree in a single 'tank' if you will, that leaders or officers can dole-out into the base research trees. The RP each player contributed by researching their own trees is a known quantity, and will give them a % of the total RP moved this way which will calculate into their base contribution percentage easily.
The only issue would be that you would have a lot of extra research spent, I would suggest increasing the base research cost by 5x or 10x to accommodate this.
B) Players are given a pop-up to regain all the research they spent on the chain (This is so players can avoid having several million points sitting in their ship to be pilfered while they may be at work on on vacation, or only able to log on for a few minutes for one reason or another and not properly spend it.) The players may re-use the research points however they like, on their own research or the base research, and are urged to go to the Base Tab and spend some or all of their research points there to get the base built up again.
Again the only real issue would be that you would have a lot of extra research and should probably increase the cost of levels.
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Last edited by QCubed on Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:41 pm |
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JoshFFuller
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:22 am Posts: 910 Location: USA
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+1 to this, and it would fix the problem of people not being able to use the base repair bay or Ct-lab etc. I'd say once you introduce this (because it needs to be added) you set it so the legion base has the current level of research needed to work on it (for example my level 5 base would already have the research done to upgrade a level 5 base)
also, maybe to make it more balanced, you could make it so you need to do base research to build things like sub-quantum cores and stuff.
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Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:47 am |
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Keith Thompson
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:14 pm Posts: 13
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+1 These are great suggestions.
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Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:32 am |
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TheSpartan
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 3:18 am Posts: 1012
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+1 I actually like this for three reasons,
1.) it's annoying to be the only one(now one of two I think) who can use the shield charging station, and those it's use by two large level players lessens the load on the repair bay, I would like to see it used by everyone
2.) it'd help smaller legions get their base level up since more players could contribute
3.) it'd help decrease one and two man legions with bases even more, since a personal level 2 or even 3 base can give the resource points of several great planets
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Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:53 am |
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Lone.Lycan
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:44 am Posts: 3751
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...make any research dumped into CTLab also count toward contribution %... that way once a base hits the current level cap, players can continue to "fix" a low contribution %
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Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:30 am |
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Oakland Blocks
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:34 am Posts: 216
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Makes more sense when research for the base is done collectively and not individually.
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Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:38 am |
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vulcangodoffire2000
Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:33 am Posts: 4
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here..here... i love this idea! now all we need to do is get dan to see it and adjust a few things to make this possible.
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Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:51 am |
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lionheart0084
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:58 pm Posts: 94
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Legion base is a great idea
A few of these tweeks will make it a fantastic idea
Something really needs to be addressed for the lower levels to give them incentive to donate without having to spend months trying to reach the research cap to donate.
Great post Q
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Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:05 pm |
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BrianGameAcct
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:45 pm Posts: 510
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+1 excellent thoughts/ideas.
I wish Dan would comment on this thread.
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Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:44 pm |
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Romah
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:49 pm Posts: 151
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It needs to be done!!! +1!
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Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:19 pm |
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Caleth
Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 5:10 am Posts: 98
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Great Idea but a potential problem. As you pointed out Dan has setup the structure a certain way and will need to boost the RP costs of things if it's a legion wide effort. The problem with this being what about people what currently have bases at level 5-6 but the total cost now with the boosted is more than what they have in the pool. So now what they can't contribute to their base for a week or two?
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Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:36 pm |
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JoshFFuller
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:22 am Posts: 910 Location: USA
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Caleth wrote: Great Idea but a potential problem. As you pointed out Dan has setup the structure a certain way and will need to boost the RP costs of things if it's a legion wide effort. The problem with this being what about people what currently have bases at level 5-6 but the total cost now with the boosted is more than what they have in the pool. So now what they can't contribute to their base for a week or two? that's why I propose you get the level of tech needed to contribute to your base if and when this comes out
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Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:06 pm |
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thunderbolta
Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 11:01 am Posts: 5825 Location: Zolar
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I like this. As a potential way of setting the research level it could add all of the research done by each member, and add that to the base research. (Which would have 40 or so times the requirement)
+1
Last edited by thunderbolta on Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:19 pm |
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TheSpartan
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 3:18 am Posts: 1012
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thunderbolta wrote: I like this. As a potential way of setting the research level it could add all of the research done by each member, and add that to the base research. (Which would have 40 or so times the requirement) I don't know about 40 times.....I'd say I have pretty high RP/hr, and even though we're a legion of 50, there's probably only about 5 or 6 people who could keep up at this level.....I'd say around 15-20 times would be more reasonable.....I mean except for the top 5 legions and al their super-players lol
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Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:16 pm |
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QCubed
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:50 am Posts: 569
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JoshFFuller wrote: Caleth wrote: Great Idea but a potential problem. As you pointed out Dan has setup the structure a certain way and will need to boost the RP costs of things if it's a legion wide effort. The problem with this being what about people what currently have bases at level 5-6 but the total cost now with the boosted is more than what they have in the pool. So now what they can't contribute to their base for a week or two? that's why I propose you get the level of tech needed to contribute to your base if and when this comes out I'm proposing that You ALWAYS can contribute the needed requirements for the next base level, so long as you have been a member of your legion for at least 1 week (basically the same as when your loyalty bonus becomes active.) so a rank 2 player could contribute energy (if needed), complex parts (if needed), Exotic Matter (If Needed), and Research (if needed) to the popper base level, after being a member of the legion for one week. They would NOT need to do any research themselves to a certain level to use any base feature, they would be able to use that base feature so long as the base has had it researched, and the legion members with rights to do so have installed the proper modules. Research done toward the base would be done collectively like the other portions of base upgrade and would count towards your research points spent like CT Lab does, and would ALSO count towards your % Contribution. I have members who have contributed only a small percent of the energy EM, and Complex Tech Parts needed but who have nearly completed the final level of research, it doesn't seem fair that they are not rewarded for the research they did, and it doesn't seem fair that a legion base which is supposed to be a legion asset requires so many players to do such a long and arduous research tree to gain the benefit! -Q
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Last edited by QCubed on Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:04 pm |
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TheSpartan
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 3:18 am Posts: 1012
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Quote: I'm proposing that You ALWAYS can contribute the needed requirements for the next base level, so long as you have been a member of your legion for at least 1 week (basically the same as when your loyalty bonus becomes active.)
so a rank 2 player could contribute energy (if needed), complex parts (if needed), Exotic Matter (If Needed), and Research (if needed) to the popper base level, after being a member of the legion for one week.
They would NOT need to do any research themselves to a certain level to use any base feature, they would be able to use that base feature so long as the base has had it researched, and the legion members with rights to do so have installed the proper modules.
Research done toward the base would be done collectively like the other portions of base upgrade and would count towards your research points spent like CT Lab does, and would ALSO count towards your % Contribution.
I have members who have contributed only a small percent of the energy EM, and Complex Tech Parts needed but who have nearly completed the final level of research, it doesn't seem fair that they are not rewarded for the research they did, and it doesn't seem fair that a legion base which is supposed to be a legion asset requires so many players to do such a long and arduous research tree to gain the benefit!
-Q
This seems the best way to you know....I think the reason he set it up the way he did is so that an extremely low rank with only 55 shields can't capitalize off the million RP it takes to instal a shield restorer, I was thinking and maybe there's a better solution that everyone can use it, because it'd be annoying if all those level 10s(I'm not saying we have any) hogged up the repair modules only to heal 300 hit points.....
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Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:17 pm |
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QCubed
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:50 am Posts: 569
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thunderbolta wrote: I like this. As a potential way of setting the research level it could add all of the research done by each member, and add that to the base research. (Which would have 40 or so times the requirement) There's several acceptable (meaning fair and equitable) ways of doing this. I think the base requirements would have to multiply by 7 to 14 times, not 40 times, that seems far far too much. What I propose is every player get's their Base research Tree replaced with a button that says "Redistribute Base Research Points" Then a pop-up window would explain the concept and make them confirm saying something like this: Redistribute Base Research Points wrote: Since we have moved Base research onto the Legion base itself, you may now move the research points which you had spent on the base technologies however you like.
Currently you have 8,264,928 research points to re-allocate. Your base currently needs 42,928,470 research points to regain the level it was at when this change was implemented.
Base combat will be suspended for 1 week while people re-upgrade their bases to proper levels or until the original level is reached, whichever occurs first. When you click continue 8,264,928 research points will be deposited in your Research storage pool, and you will be able to use them on the base or on your own personal research, but are encouraged to re-donate your research points to your Legion base so that it can regain it's former glory, so you will be brought to the Legion Base research screen when you click continue.
If you are not ready to take this research now, for one reason or another, please click "cancel" and the research points will be available for you to redistribute at a later time.
(Cancel) I need to wait to think about how I will use this research.
(Continue) [Check-Box] Yes I really want the Research Points now. Another option would be for the game to: 1. total the research done by all members. 2. Find the percent each member contributed to that total. 3. If the total done is LESS than the amount needed for the current highest base research level already achieved, apply it against the base tech tree, and inform everyone how much more is needed to get to the right technology level and give a week or two to catch up. 4. If the total done is MORE than the amount required, then the research is applied to that point, and the remainder of the research points are split up based off of the percent each member contributed to the total, and it is refunded to them using a button similar to the one I described above. * This may give a positive benefit to some legions (mainly larger ones) while a less useful benefit to others (mainly smaller ones.) Another possibly simpler option would be for the game to: 1. Check every player to see the highest level of research one of the legion's player has attained for the base. 2. Find the total amount of research done by all members of the legion. 3. Set the base research level to the max level found in step one. 4. Set each member's research contribution percentage based off what percent of the total research found in step 2 was their own. 5. From that point on the research is applied on a group-effort basis the same as if that had been done from day one. * This may give a positive benefit to some legions (mainly smaller ones) while a less useful benefit to others (mainly larger ones.)
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Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:32 pm |
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QCubed
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:50 am Posts: 569
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TheSpartan wrote: Quote: I'm proposing that You ALWAYS can contribute the needed requirements for the next base level, so long as you have been a member of your legion for at least 1 week (basically the same as when your loyalty bonus becomes active.)
so a rank 2 player could contribute energy (if needed), complex parts (if needed), Exotic Matter (If Needed), and Research (if needed) to the popper base level, after being a member of the legion for one week.
They would NOT need to do any research themselves to a certain level to use any base feature, they would be able to use that base feature so long as the base has had it researched, and the legion members with rights to do so have installed the proper modules.
Research done toward the base would be done collectively like the other portions of base upgrade and would count towards your research points spent like CT Lab does, and would ALSO count towards your % Contribution.
I have members who have contributed only a small percent of the energy EM, and Complex Tech Parts needed but who have nearly completed the final level of research, it doesn't seem fair that they are not rewarded for the research they did, and it doesn't seem fair that a legion base which is supposed to be a legion asset requires so many players to do such a long and arduous research tree to gain the benefit!
-Q
This seems the best way to you know....I think the reason he set it up the way he did is so that an extremely low rank with only 55 shields can't capitalize off the million RP it takes to instal a shield restorer, I was thinking and maybe there's a better solution that everyone can use it, because it'd be annoying if all those level 10s(I'm not saying we have any) hogged up the repair modules only to heal 300 hit points..... I don't think shield repairer is a great benefit personally, I was thinking that the repair bay might have a percentage contribution to activate, but that's outside the scope of this post, and I think is something which should be considered anyway. I've had the thought a leader or officer should be able to set it to "be a member for X Time" and/or "Be between Rank X and Y". etc. Or another thought would be once you get the technology for the repairer you can use it once per hour, separately from any others. even still I think the repairer is a waste. -Q
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Last edited by QCubed on Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:35 pm |
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FerrusManus
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:32 am Posts: 4524
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I think the main reason for having the research be on an individual basis in order to lessen how much a few really high levels can do for everybody else. They can already get the production and protection from people leveling up the Base, but this keeps them from gaining all the benefits of the Base without doing any of the work, to help balance it.
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Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:36 pm |
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QCubed
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:50 am Posts: 569
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FerrusManus wrote: I think the main reason for having the research be on an individual basis in order to lessen how much a few really high levels can do for everybody else. They can already get the production and protection from people leveling up the Base, but this keeps them from gaining all the benefits of the Base without doing any of the work, to help balance it. no, it keeps you from participating in the base and feeling like you're part of the legion needlessly. If he did not want high players to help the lower players there would be no legions, and there would be no legion bases. Legions are built around co-operation and tend to have the higher players helping the lower. Even if the higher players do all the work to get all the research the legion bases are often done as a communist pay-out. You;ll note I addressed why it's still unfair whether this is communist or % contribution based payout above. The time and effort you spend on research should count for a % of the legion base bonus. -Q
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Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:57 pm |
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